Brad Shreve: 0:00

This is Queer we Are. There are some great LGBTQ organizations and through this podcast I've had the good fortune to be acquainted with some of the leaders of some of them, and they have given me hope. Organizations you've likely heard of include the National LGBTQ Task Force, GLAAD, Trevor Project, Lambda Legal, and then there are all the equalities, such as Equality California, equality Maine, equality Virginia, equality Michigan, and that list goes on. But what do these organizations do? I mean, sure you've heard about them in the news, and you know they're supporting the queer community and some are fighting for our rights and you may have even donated to them. I know I have. But are you like me and not know what it is they really? Do, I mean really know? If not, how can you appreciate them as much as you probably should?

Brad Shreve: 1:06

On Queer, we Are my guests aren't allowed to come on and just complain about the way the world is. They're here to tell us what they're doing about it, what you can do about it, and you get to hear some good news for a change. And you know, sometimes they're just here to entertain. Simply. This is a no-whining zone. I have a representative of one of the groups I listed here to tell us what they're all about. Sasha Buchert is a senior attorney with Lambda Legal, which was founded in 1985. She joined them in 2017 when compelled, when a certain someone got into office. No-transcript. But also, what is Lambda Legal doing about them and what you can do, and some big wins we've had in recent years and you know things have been tough, but there have been more wins than you think.

Brad Shreve: 2:19

Before we get to Sasha, I'd like to point something out I think is important. Before I give to any charity, I check them out on Charity Navigator, which is a charity organization of its own, and what they do is rate organizations based on their financial transparency, their effectiveness in the community. A big one is the percentage of money going to programs rather than fundraising and operations. I'm going to leave their link in the show notes. They give Lambda Legal a whopping 95% rating, which I will say is more than pretty damn good, and I'm happy to hear my dollars have been well spent. But don't worry, that's just my little plug. She didn't come on here to spend 40 minutes begging for money, so I'm going to shut up now because it's time to get to her and you know where to find us. I'm Brad Shreve and my guest is Sasha Buchert, and you don't have to go anywhere because Queer we Are. Sasha Buchert, it's a pleasure to have you on, queer we Are. Thank you so much for being here.

Sasha Buchert: 3:30

Oh, thanks so much, Brad.

Brad Shreve: 3:34

Pleasure to be on the program. You know, I know Lambda Legal. I know that you guys do great things, but I really don't know specifically what the goal of the organization is and I don't know specifically what you exactly do, other than I see great things that you guys do in the news. I'm sure others are just like me. What does Lambda Legal do?

Sasha Buchert: 3:52

Yeah, thanks, happy to answer that. I've been here for going on six years now and every day I'm even more impressed with the work the organization does. We've been around since 1973. And what we do is to advance protections for LGBTQ people and people living with HIV through impact litigation is what we're most known for. We litigated Lawrence v Texas, for example, which was a case that struck down sodomy laws, that criminalized intimacy among same-sex couples back in the early 2000s, for example.

Sasha Buchert: 4:27

But we also worked on Obergefell you know, the marriage equality decision landmark cases involving folks living with HIV, like Bragdon v Abbott, and the list is endless.

Sasha Buchert: 4:37

And just in the last few years, you know, there's been some huge, groundbreaking cases that we worked on. So that's what we're most known for. But we also do a lot of work on education. We know that it's so important to win these battles in the court, of course, but also to win in the court of public opinion, and that means sharing what we know about the lives of LGBTQ people and sharing stories and really lifting up our plaintiffs, for example, and telling their stories and just humanizing, you know, lgbtq folks. So there's a lot of work that goes into education and we also work on public policy issues. We are currently working arm in arm with our partners across the country and seeking to push back and defeat the anti-LGBTQ legislation that is growing every year, also working on introducing legislation that will be helpful and shape folks' lives in a number of different areas. So public policy, education and, most noticeably probably, is our impact litigation.

Brad Shreve: 5:31

So you've done a couple things here and there over the years. Yeah, thank you for all the work you folks have done, and I'm glad you have the educational part in there, because we can get all the laws passed we want, but they don't necessarily change hearts and minds.

Sasha Buchert: 5:44

Yeah, you know I'm a trans person and I identify as a transgender woman and it's just, you know, really, really important to me that whenever I do an interview, you know I usually talk about trans folks in particular, just like a lot of other folks. You know, we have the same hopes and dreams. We want a family, we like ice cream, we like dogs. Just the humanization is so important in this moment because the far right, unfortunately, is really seizing the moment of the unknowingness of trans folk. Because we're just a smaller population, it's just mathematically really difficult to know a trans person. In a lot of cases, a lot of people do, because more and more people have really been bold and have come out of the closet and living openly as who they are.

Sasha Buchert: 6:26

We're still a small population, so it's just so important to me we take every opportunity to put a face on the issue and to make sure that people understand that there are real human beings out there who are transgender people, who are living lives, trying to live lives without having to look over the shoulder in fear of discrimination. So, just yeah, huge, huge, huge props to all of the people, all of the trans people and non-binary people across the country who are doing this really important work in really difficult parts of the country. In some cases, you know where the hostility is so thick that it's just really a challenging atmosphere. But people are still, bravely, you know, going to their hostile state legislatures, they're going to work, they're living their lives openly and proudly. So just huge hats off to all of the trans and non-binary folks across the country that are doing so much work to shift public opinion and support for trans and non-binary folks.

Brad Shreve: 7:20

Yeah, lgbtq people in general are under attack right now. But, oh my God, trans community is just being brutalized and I'll tell you my theory. Sure, please. My theory is it used to be all about gays and lesbians because trans is such a much smaller community, and then, once marriage equality happened and people were like they live next door to me, you know it's pretty okay. I mean, I'm talking in general term here. So then the right had to find somebody new to brutalize. Yeah, I was watching an old episode of Glee. Yes, I'm gay.

Sasha Buchert: 7:53

And.

Brad Shreve: 7:53

Sue Sylvester was running for office and she wasn't doing well in the polls and she said you know what I've been pushing for something? I think I need to be against something and what comes to the folks on the right, that's really their whole mindset.

Sasha Buchert: 8:07

Yeah.

Brad Shreve: 8:08

What can we be against? Do you think I'm on the right?

Sasha Buchert: 8:10

path I do. I think there's a lot of. You know I'm not a sociologist, I'm a lawyer, but you know, give me my opinion. I do think that there's a number of factors at play. I completely agree with you. I think it's easier, easier to hate and fear than it is to love and support, and I do think that that's an easier way to gain power to demonize, you know, rather than humanize. But I think there's a number of factors at play.

Sasha Buchert: 8:33

Certainly there's been a trajectory from going, after I'm old enough now, where I've lived through the marriage equality fights and the way in which the far right talked about LGB people back in the 90s left a, you know, a mark on me seeing the pain and suffering that folks went through during that period. And you're right, the targets have shifted to trans and non-binary folks. But I think it's really important, especially in this moment. I think that that would have happened anyway, but I think it's really been escalated, driven by a number of different factors. I think one is loss of abortion as a political rallying. It's like the dog that caught the car. They got the Supreme Court decision and now they're finding out as the president just said, the state of the union what the consequences of that are going to be, and my point is that they've lost that issue to divide folks. So they are certainly going after trans folks, but I think it's also important to emphasize that they haven't stopped going after people of color. Racism and discrimination against folks of color in this country, you know, has come a long way, but it's so clear that there is still so much discrimination that exists, you know, on that front.

Sasha Buchert: 9:42

In addition, look at the attacks on women still not just abortion protections, but IVF protections or access to contraceptive care. It's all at attack from the far right. They go after what I view as bodily autonomy. In many ways it's just the freedom to live and make decisions about your own body, and it's about control. I think too. I know that you know we want to talk about what we can do as a community, but I think it's just important to point these things out, because I do think that if you look at these attacks as a whole, you see that they're just.

Sasha Buchert: 10:15

You know, it's just this nonstop attack on freedom and liberty. It's not just bans on health care, it's bans on sports, it's bans on bathrooms, it's bans on drag queens, it's bans on pride flags. I'm surprised they haven't tried to ban dancing. It's really clear to me that this is an all-out assault on freedom, and I think there's another reason for it, too that doesn't get discussed as often but feels really important to me, because I feel like it's part of our democracy is the way in which a lot of these places where this legislation is really causing the most harm are places where political gerrymandering has caused the least ability for people to rise up and stand up against these attacks, because of the way in which these state legislatures are formed and congressional delegations. So I think that's a really important piece of this our voting rights.

Brad Shreve: 11:04

To make a long story short, I'd definitely like to keep the show on the positive, but we have to talk about what's going on, to know we're going to go Doing what I do here. I've gotten to know a lot of folks like yourself that are really out there doing some great things and people need to be reminded of that and that's why I have this show. It's funny you brought up racism. My husband's a black man and we live with his mother. We help care for her, and they do it jokingly because otherwise they'd cry. They just roll their eyes and like, yeah, we know what it means to say bring America back again.

Sasha Buchert: 11:33

You know, we all know what that means.

Brad Shreve: 11:35

You mentioned gerrymandering and everything. The polls overwhelmingly well. In some polls it depends on what we're looking at. Marriage equality is very high. The country supports it. Even Republicans are frustrated at what DeSantis is doing. But trans is lower in the polls but still shows the majority of Americans support trans rights. But they cheat, gerrymandering and all this other garbage. It's just. It's sickening to run on a platform that people are against because for your own agenda that's not representation, is it?

Sasha Buchert: 12:08

No, and they don't even try to pretend. I don't know why I was expecting anything different, but after the 2016 election, I was just so stunned to see then-President Trump talking in a way that was really only speaking to one small part of the country, and at least prior administrations, who had fairly hostile views towards LGBTQ people, pretended to talk to the entire country and to speak for the entire country, but this just was a. I viewed it as a perspective where the winner takes all and if you didn't vote for me, you're not going to look at, you're not my constituent and I'm not going to do anything for you, and, in fact, I'm going to go after you is the sense I'm getting from a lot of politicians, how they view their jobs as legislators, which is really disappointing.

Brad Shreve: 12:52

It really is. I always tell people my listeners have heard me say this before it's Obama's fault, because he was in there for two great terms and they were like, no, we can't have this happen. And it was a rebound. It was a rebound effect and this minority of people have, well, they've done a great job of getting into our school boards. We had our, we had our backstern while they were sneaking into the school boards and and getting the local communities and people don't vote in the local elections and they're they're so important. You know, I I don't understand, understand why people don't get, why it's so important. You know who's the mayor affects me more on a day-to-day basis than who's the president and, my God, the school boards have changed all these policies and it's insane. So, yeah, we know what they're doing and I want to get to some of the good things that are going on. But it was in the right, after the 19, the 20, I'm sorry, 19, 16, the 2016 election, that you decided to go with Lambda Legal, am I correct?

Sasha Buchert: 13:51

That's right. That's right. Yep 2017,. I came to Lambda Legal in the summer of 2017. And I was here, probably like less than a month, and Trump issued his tweets about transgender military service. Issued his tweets about transgender military service. I was just sitting in my office looking at Twitter and just absolutely aghast and realized how bad things were going to be at that moment.

Brad Shreve: 14:12

I presume you're still on Twitter.

Sasha Buchert: 14:14

I am not. I haven't closed down my account, but I rarely go and look at it, only when there's some massive news story. That's pretty rare. I don't really take a back and disgusted by the owner's statements about trans folks and trans issues, so I just don't have the heart to. You know, I enjoyed a few great years on that platform and had some amazing conversations and it was a really important tool, but the way in which it's been transformed into this really hostile, unmoderated climate run by a person who is clearly hostile to trans folks, you know, left me with a bad taste in my mouth and I go back maybe once or twice a year, the most.

Brad Shreve: 14:57

I suspend my account. You're allowed to suspend it for 30 days, so every 28 days I go back and reenact it and put it on suspension again Because I keep thinking someday either it's going to go run in the ground or maybe somebody saying we'll buy it and I don't want to lose my name. Yeah, so I do the same thing. The reason I was thinking maybe you were on there. I thought maybe your job. You have to kind of know what's going on, but you're not getting the pulse of the nation.

Brad Shreve: 15:30

You're getting the pulse of the nation. You know Exactly, exactly. So you are the director of Lambda Legal's Non-Binary and Transgender Rights Project and it used to be called the Transgender Rights Project and it's been changed to Non-Binary. And for me personally and I'm going to assume other people are like me, in fact I'll be very blunt. I'm always very open about this, because anybody who knows me will find this hard to believe I was really uncomfortable with trans Once I got to know some trans folks. Well, now I'm not going to say non-binary is the same thing, but people like nice little black and white bodies.

Brad Shreve: 16:05

Yeah, and you know, okay, male, female, but non-binary. Wait a minute, can you explain a non-binary to us? Yeah, for sure. What's a society view on binary?

Sasha Buchert: 16:18

Yeah, I think it's not the same. I think comparisons aren't great, you know, but I think one way to understand it is to understand the experience of bisexual people, who often get erased when talking about, you know, binaries of being gay or straight.

Brad Shreve: 16:34

Well, bisexuals don't exist, you know. They have to make a choice.

Sasha Buchert: 16:39

They're just really gay. They're just really lesbian. They're just really straight. I'm just really lesbian. They're just really straight.

Brad Shreve: 16:43

I'm still floored when I hear that I'm like what?

Sasha Buchert: 16:47

Yeah, it's the same thing with non-binary folks to some degree. You know, I think that some people just don't identify as male or female and they do fall in between. You know, I think that thinking about sex and gender, sexuality and gender as these binary, oppositional poles isn't that helpful. I think that, going back to the Kinsey Institute, I think that, whatever people want to admit, I think it's pretty clear that these issues are, you know, fall on a spectrum and there are people that just don't identify as female, they don't identify as male, and that experience should be honored. You know, and I'm grateful for you saying you know what you've said, because I think that that's probably the experience of a lot of people and it provides a model for people to see. You know and I've experienced it in my own life and with different issues it can be a challenge sometimes to overcome some of those ways in which we frame the world and talk about the trans community being small.

Sasha Buchert: 17:39

the non-binary community is minuscule compared to that, you know. So it's really important that we in the same way that, you know, the trans community doesn't want to be erased as part of the LGBTQ community it's just really important that we have a broad tent and make sure that we're including non-binary folks as part of this. You know there's been a lot of really great policy movement forward on behalf of non-binary folks. You know, not just in the US but around the world. Asports have had ex-gender markers now for maybe a decade in places like India and Australia as a result of some Lambda legal litigation. Actually, we have ex-gender markers here as of I think three years ago now. So that's exciting and there's a lot of other wonderful advocacy being done, but it is something to grapple with. I think it's helpful for folks Sometimes. There's a lot of educational materials out there that can help people understand a little better who non-binary people are, but I hope that helps explain it a little bit.

Brad Shreve: 18:38

Yes, it does. I will say one thing I'm happy to see about non-binary like marriage equality is a good example. When we were trying to get marriage equality passed, unfortunately, all of a sudden it became LGB, because they wanted to make sure that we got our rights and they didn't think. Some organizations I'm going to say some organizations wanted to ensure that we got our rights and they're like you know, we're not going to get it with trans, so we're just going to go forward and trans community got pushed to the wayside and it's paying for it now. I'm happy to see non-binary being pulled in, really before that happens. Yeah, I hope we learned from that.

Sasha Buchert: 19:13

Yeah, I think we did. I think the state of the union, state of the LGBTQ union, is pretty solid right now. You know, I'm not saying there aren't people that have strong feelings, but overall I think you know there's a lot of, I think there's been a real movement towards that and I hope that continues. Yeah for sure.

Brad Shreve: 19:30

If you can elaborate more on that as far as how you see more inclusion today than what it used to be, Well on a number of fronts.

Sasha Buchert: 19:37

First of all, I think that people especially since 2020, people have become a lot more cognizant about the. You know, we talked about racism a while back and I think it's just really important to. I think a foundational understanding that I think is shared by most of the organizations is that the folks that we should be doing work on on behalf of the most impacted and that should drive what we do impacted and that should drive what we do and clearly the folks that are most impacted are folks of color and specifically trans folks of color, trans women of color. You know they sit on this firing line between racism, homophobia, transphobia, sexism. So I think there's been just a lot of work. I'm not saying a lot of it isn't performative or just lip service and that doesn't necessarily lead to the change that we would love to see in the world, but I think there's a lot more effort. Anyway, I don't know about the results I'll leave that for someone else to assess but I think that there at least is a conversation happening about making sure that there's thoughtfulness around inclusivity and the work that we do, whether it's the litigation, public policy work, whether it's a panel. You know you want to make sure that you've got folks of color represented and you want to make sure that there are diverse experiences. So I feel like that's one piece of it.

Sasha Buchert: 20:46

I think that there's been, you know, a sea change in interest and conversations around trans and non-binary folks across the country. You know, I think you know, I talk to law firms all the time and they're super excited about these issues and part of it is their interest in litigation, of course, but I think just generally, and so I think I'm hopeful that that will continue. I'm not saying that there aren't problems there are, you know, that need to be worked on, but I think that the trend is favorable. You know, I don't want to be overly Pollyannish about it again, no-transcript. You know where I do feel like there is a positive trajectory.

Brad Shreve: 21:32

Yeah, as much as it feels like we've been pushed back and we have nowhere near what it was 30 years ago, right, and it's easy to lose sight of that.

Sasha Buchert: 21:40

There it is. I was just thinking the other day. I was like thinking about all of the amazing. I don't know them by name Somebody will have to check me on this but I know that there are amazing openly trans performers that you know do amazing pop music and are models and in almost every you know realm of public life.

Sasha Buchert: 22:03

When I was growing up, it was pretty much Renee Richards, you know. So I think that that's a huge change culturally and I think that this is to some degree, you know, laverne Cox, of course, and Janet Mock, and I just I don't want to start leave somebody out, but there's just endless amount of amazing folks. I think part of you know the anti-trans stuff that we're seeing is really backlash, because I think people, wherever you look, of LGBTQ people, is a threat to the view of America as something that it never was. So I think that's part of it. But, yeah, again, I'm a very optimistic person and, like you, I think that it's a difficult and dark moment, to be sure, but I think the overall arc here is good.

Brad Shreve: 23:00

Well, you brought up the pop figures that are trans and how they're being embraced. A lot of that is the Gen Z and some of the younger Gen X. Their attitude Are you surprised by how embracing they are? They don't even want to be called gay or trans. They're like we don't want those labels, we just want to be.

Sasha Buchert: 23:20

Yeah, which is amazing, which is wonderful, you know. I mean I have gripes, as every lawyer does. I think it's wonderful and it's great and it's sweet and the numbers give me a lot of hope every day when I think about the next generations. One I would love to see more of them vote. I went through a training a few months ago and it was just so depressing to understand how few folks that are under 30 vote. The numbers are really really stunning and it's just that's got to change.

Sasha Buchert: 23:57

You want to see aed in the New York Times talking about the movie that was released pretty recently with Will Ferrell who traveled across the country with a trans woman.

Sasha Buchert: 24:06

I haven't seen it yet but it's a documentary and it's supposed to be pretty great. And you know, he kind of paralleled a little bit like the rising visibility of trans folks overall and contrasted that with the attacks you know, and said that visibility. I think the thesis mostly was that visibility isn't going to save us here. We need to have people engaged and active. So you know, as much as I appreciate the way in which the youth have really embraced freedom and have chosen to live openly and authentically and live lives that you know we could have only imagined a couple of decades ago. I do hope that they will translate more of that into action, because there's a lot of people suffering in this moment and I know we'll come through it and you know we'll be better for it. But I just want to remind people that there's a lot of harm being done in the meantime and whatever work you can do to advance things in this moment will diminish that harm and suffering that people are experiencing.

Brad Shreve: 25:00

When I talked to Brian Sims, the former Pennsylvania congressperson, state congressperson and is now doing advocacy work, he gave me hope because I brought up the voting of the young people. Democrats since probably Kennedy, have worked very hard to get the younger generation to vote and they kind of gave up because they realized it's a lot of money and a lot of work and they've had little result. And yeah, we need them to vote more. But we saw in the last, the most recent elections that more are voting. The percentage has gone up dramatically because it was so low. You know, it has gone up dramatically. And I said to Brian I said you know it's because these kids don't care and Brian goes no, they do care, that's why they're voting now. They do care.

Sasha Buchert: 25:44

Yeah.

Brad Shreve: 25:45

And I hope that's a trend that continues.

Sasha Buchert: 25:47

Yeah, me too. I really do. I hope it does. I also hope it does we're doing. You know it's so important that people remember to register and to vote. It makes a world of difference and, as you said earlier, not just the presidential elections. You know, the local, like all politics, is local, as they say, and that's just so key. So, yeah, please, please, please, please, take a moment. You know you want to be active and want to support your community and women and people of color and trans and non-binary people, and you want to make a difference. Easiest thing you can do is to vote and the most important thing you can do is to vote. The easiest thing you can do is to vote.

Brad Shreve: 26:20

And the most important thing you can do is to vote. So this is going to seem like a silly question. After four years of a nightmarish person in the White House he that shall not be named, how does it feel like the other day when LGBT community is mentioned in Biden's State of the Union address?

Sasha Buchert: 26:35

Loved it. You know I think it's so important. I mean the Biden administration has done the Biden-Harris administration. I want to make sure we give credit to the vice president, who is absolutely wonderful and has been doing so much really important work on reproductive freedom. I think that it's reassuring.

Sasha Buchert: 26:50

You know, I'm the kind of person that likes to look at action over words, necessarily, but just calling out trans people is just so important. It's part of that humanization work that I was talking about earlier. You know, just saying the word trans, I mean we know that the last administration tried to ban the word transgender and we've seen that in state legislation across the country where you know they will never say the word transgender because it's humanizing. You know it puts a face on the issue. So I think just saying that and he got some heat for it, you know there's some far right folks that were, you know, complaining that he mentioned us as human beings. So I can hear my old boss in my ear who always said make sure you bring judicial nominations to the dance. So just really excited about the progress that's been made on the federal judiciary. People forget that those folks are lifetime appointments, meaning that they could be on the bench after three, four different, five different administrations change over and they'll still be there and some of the folks that we saw nominated and confirmed in the last administration, you know, had very clear records of their hostility towards LGBTQ people. So I was just really grateful to the diversity of nominees that the administration put forward. You know there were so many folks amazing folks of color, clearly qualified folks for the job but you know there were so many folks amazing folks of color, clearly qualified folks for the job, but you know, also diverse and not necessarily always coming from white shoe. You know whatever that term is for corporate law firms. You know there are a lot of people who worked at public defender firms and just amazing diversity in both the profession and the demographics that we saw. Still waiting for the first trans and non-binary nominee. There's never been a nominee. Even so, I'm just hoping that by the end of the year that somebody gets nominated. I would really love to see that because I think that that's again part of the work Make sure somebody's qualified. They have to be able to do the job, but it would just be lovely to make sure that that happens sometime soon. But a lot of LGBTQ, lgb, wonderful nominees that have been nominated and confirmed over the last three years and so hopefully that will continue.

Sasha Buchert: 29:06

And that's really important again because a lot of these decisions that work their way up through the courts don't all necessarily get to the Supreme Court. The Supreme Court is surely the last law of the land but a lot of places, a lot of cases. They only take about 100 cases. So, like you know, tens of thousands of cases end up in the different circuit courts, meaning you know there's 13 different circuit courts around the country. Some of these issues really important issues on civil rights issues like guns and LGBTQ issues and reproductive freedom you know a whole host of different issues get decided at that level and might not ever make it to the Supreme Court or might not make it for decades, meaning that if it's a, you know, really horrific policy, it just stays in place, you know, in that part of the country, which is really harmful. So really excited to see the changes. To make a life story short, sorry to go on so long about this, but in the federal judiciary and hoping to see a lot more.

Brad Shreve: 30:01

I hope so too, and you know we have two lesbian governors now and it's not going to happen as fast as you and I would like it to, because we want it to happen now.

Sasha Buchert: 30:08

I think we'll see a trans governor before too long.

Brad Shreve: 30:10

I think it'll happen in my lifetime.

Sasha Buchert: 30:12

Well, yeah, we had so many firsts that have like came in the last election I can't even remember them all for non-binary and trans folks I was. Yeah, you're right, you know, there's a first. There's a trans woman running for the first congressional seat up in Pennsylvania, sarah McBride, and there's some other folks that I believe are considering runs too, across the country, so hopefully we'll see our first congressperson, which would be amazing, you know. So, yeah, you're right, there's so many ceilings to break here, so I'm just excited to see the trajectory for the community.

Brad Shreve: 30:42

And I think one of the reasons why we've seen so many that were successful and got elected is because we had so many that were like wait a minute, this has got to stop. And they ran yeah, so we need more people running. And again back to the local elections. I think back to the libertarians, when they had a lot more strength, and what the libertarians were doing were they said we need to start locally. They were running for local office, they were running for state and they were really gaining some power and then, for some reason, that changed. I don't know whose decision it was. They start focusing on the presidential, like all their attention and it fell apart. I mean, they're still around, but they're not nearly as strong as they used to be, which you can be saying that's a plus or negative right now I embrace libertarians compared to what we have, but I think that we could learn a lesson from that.

Sasha Buchert: 31:25

Yes, absolutely To paraphrase the president, folks, here's the thing. Most of most of you probably don't know and this is just being completely honest with yourself who your state legislator is or your state senator, and that's just the facts. So that just is a clear sign to me that you're right. We have turned away from, you know, local elections and have turned to the big shiny presidential elections or maybe the Senate elections at the most, and it's just so important because there are so many, you know, positive changes that you can make you know on the local level and your voice is so important.

Sasha Buchert: 32:01

It's just really important that people get involved and know who your state legislator is. You can Google it and you can enter your zip code and you can find out and contact them and ask them what they're doing to support LGBTQ people. At least know who they are and consider a run yourself. Like you said, you're right, people have been mobilized and they're activated and hopefully it's not just trans and non-binary folks. Hopefully we're seeing more LGBT, lgb candidates as well, as you know, women and people of color, and you know this country needs to. I hope just more people get excited about the prospect of running for something and get involved and start going to city council meetings. Get to know who people are and make your move.

Brad Shreve: 32:39

And I'm going to give a great example of why I think this is important. I'm trying to drill this in people's heads. Sean Struve is a perfect example. Sean founded Paz Magazine and continues to do some great advocacy work. He is mayor of a small town in Pennsylvania in a very red community. And what happened when? There was something that happened with the mayor and he wasn't necessarily just put into place, but it was pretty easy for him to become mayor and then when it came time for the next election, he easily won and he said because people realize it, who cares who I'm married to? Their trash was being picked up, yeah, you know. And they realized everything was OK. If more and more people can see that and feel comfortable, ok, we have a gay mayor. Ok, we have a gay mayor. Okay, we have a trans state legislator and the world's not falling apart and lightning didn't strike me and then they'll start being more comfortable for national Senate, national Congress, people and the president.

Sasha Buchert: 33:34

Yeah, yeah, it's just getting over that initial hurdle, you know. After that it's the question is are they doing their job or not?

Brad Shreve: 33:39

Absolutely so. Tell us some other good things that are happening, because we need to hear the good stuff. I look through the different online LGBTQ magazines and, if I dig, I actually started a newsletter for a while, but I was just too busy writing novels. I had to dig to find the good news, but there was a lot of it, and because it doesn't sell, it doesn't sell, so we were being drummed out of the service before we got involved with our litigation and those folks are now protected.

Sasha Buchert: 34:26

You know, we have a saying here where we lean in on science and not stigma. You know, and that's led to a sea change in the way that the DOD handles folks who are living with HIV in the military and there's litigation now focused on people that are seeking to enlist in the military that are living with HIV. You know, there's just a lot of misinformation and confusion and biased reasoning, in my opinion, with regard to not just gender affirming, not just with people living with HIV, but also with gender affirming care. So I feel like that's just a that's a huge victory. That's a little bit not told as often, but but a huge victory for the community. We've also seen enormous drives, you know, with regard to the bans on health care for trans minors overall. You know the number of states from really conservative judges and really conservative parts of the country who have issued, you know, injunctions, keeping you know those laws from going into effect is just absolutely stunning with really powerful reasoning. That is so important because those district court judges you know the trial court level, not to bore people with procedure, but there's three different levels, you know. There's the trial court, the appeals court and then the Supreme Court and the trial court is the court that hears directly from witnesses and they hear from the plaintiffs themselves, they hear from the defendants. Those are the people that are closest to the facts and in these cases, you know, they've heard from families over and over and over again, and they've heard from the folks who are trying to inflict these bans and they have, you know, repeatedly, almost universally, held that you know these laws likely violate the Constitution and have enjoined them from going into effect and there's been some appellate courts that have ruled otherwise, unfortunately, that have watered down some of those really amazing decisions Not all of them, but you know some of them. But I think that one of the big victories out of that is the humanization of trans people, first of all because they're, you know, folks are going to the courtroom and telling their stories and the media is covering this and people are recognizing that. You know what's really afoot here.

Sasha Buchert: 36:25

So there's just been a lot of progress in the way that people understand trans people and care needed to treat gender dysphoria. Since I've been doing this work, you know the amount of hostility people have towards you know that care, in particular, is stunning to me. It's the same care, because it's the same care in a lot of cases. That's frequently provided to non-transgender people. You know, cisgender people non-transgender people, you know undergo hormone care for any number of reasons. It's endless, you know. And same with puberty blockers A lot of reasons kids undertake that care. It's demonstrated to be clinically effective for trans people.

Sasha Buchert: 37:00

But it's just anyway, to make a long story short, just the. There's been a huge change in, I think, the way the conversation around these issues and people are understanding, you know, the medical necessity and the clinical effectiveness and really has started to poke holes in the junk science that you know is often used to frame these issues. So there's a. Those are a couple of really those are probably the most significant victories I think that we've experienced. We are seeing victories. We want a really great injunction. We filed a lawsuit in response to a don't say gay bill that was passed in Iowa last year and we've challenged that and it's such a ridiculous attack, in my opinion, because everybody has a gender identity and everybody has a sexual orientation. It would be, you know, it's just they don't want to come out and say that they're just targeting LGBT people, so they pretend it's this curriculum issue and we want a really amazing injunction keeping that law from going into effect while the litigation proceeds. So it's another victory that we've just seen.

Sasha Buchert: 37:57

You know and again I think I'm going back to the larger picture I'm not saying it will continue and the burden is on the folks in this country that want to continue to live in a democracy, but you know, we have seen positive results. The midterm election isn't an election that usually goes the way in which it did during a presidential administration during a presidential administration. So I think that there's something great to be said about people's awareness of what's going on. Sometimes I worry that people are not really paying attention, but then, you know, the last three elections have consoled me in that people are watching and they are paying attention, but it's just so important that people stay vigilant. So those are a few things that I can, you know, probably mention a few more, but it's just so important that people stay vigilant. So those are a few things that I can probably mention a few more, but those are things that are really top of mind right now.

Brad Shreve: 38:46

Well, I'm glad you brought up the courts, because one thing I don't think people realize we hear about all these bills that are going across the country and it's just outrageous the number, but I don't think people realize how much the courts have said no, yeah, they've really done their job of standing as the bulwark Are there any that surprised you A lot? Yeah.

Sasha Buchert: 39:05

Like I said, you know we've had courts and we had judges that were appointed in the last administration in places like Tennessee. Tennessee is really a conservative, deep red state with a court that was appointed by you know last administration who actually ruled against us in another case, issued this really powerful decision on behalf of trans kids in health care that was 60, 70 pages long and looked in detail at all of the issues and issued this really rock-solid, well-thought-out, well-reasoned decision that was really powerful. It got reversed by the Sixth Circuit, but it was just a really amazing decision. So that's one example. There was a decision in Alabama, similarly holding that you know its discrimination. There was a decision in Arkansas.

Sasha Buchert: 39:54

Arkansas, tennessee and Alabama are not the states that jump out at you as places where you're going to have judges that would stereotypically be more supportive, and all of the judges in those cases, I believe, were well, at least two of them were, you know, judges that were appointed by, you know, republican administrations. Those are some examples, you know. Just it's the same conversation I was having about things to be positive about. So I think that's certainly been surprising and I think that'll continue, just because it's just such a clear cut issue and such a clear cut attack overall.

Brad Shreve: 40:27

I've seen a lot of people mobilize, but I have also seen probably an equal number of people that really are ready to wave the right flag. They don't see any hope. You obviously have hope. Or you wouldn't be doing what you're doing, oh yeah, why should I have hope? You should have hope. Or you wouldn't be doing what you're doing, oh yeah, why should I have hope?

Sasha Buchert: 40:43

You should have hope because, again, look at the last three elections, look at the trajectory that we've been talking about and the arc of. You know I don't want to use Dr Martin Luther King Jr's language, but there is progress that's being made here and you have to. You know, nobody said civil rights was going to be easy or human rights is going to be easy. But in times when democracy is challenged and civil rights are challenged in this way, it's so important that people don't let down their guard. They have to stand up and you have to fight and you have to push back and you have to be visible and you have to do the hard work.

Sasha Buchert: 41:16

We've gotten a little spoiled. I think there is a threat right now to our future and our children's future, and it's just so important. But I think people should have hope. If you look at the past and where we are now, there's just so many things to be excited about and the hope we can continue to provide leadership to not just protect ourselves and for our country, but for the world.

Sasha Buchert: 41:37

You know we're seeing similar issues around the world, with growing autocracy and the diminishment of civil and human rights in a lot of different places, and I think you know, the more we can stand up and do what we can do now, creating a better future for a lot of people. One thing that doesn't get discussed as much that I would love to infuse into the discussion a little bit is people being a little more cognizant about where they're spending their money into the discussion a little bit is people being a little more cognizant about where they're spending their money? You know you can go to opensecretsorg and you can find out who's donating. I was going to ask what people yeah find out which companies are giving.

Sasha Buchert: 42:11

I'm not asking people to boycott this or that company, but at least be aware of which companies are supporting the politicians that are causing the most harm in this moment. I think that businesses you know have some accountability and I think it's really important that people understand who they're supporting and be aware you know of when you buy that toilet paper at the store. You know where does that money go. What is it? What does it support? I don't know about you, but I'm really sick of billionaires using their money to attack civil and human rights, and we give them the ability to do that whenever we take out our wallets.

Brad Shreve: 42:44

And it is hard to boycott, because I like to use Ben and Jerry's as an example. Ben and Jerry's, when they started, was a very liberal company and it's part of their marketing. They still are a very liberal company. Unfortunately, now they're owned by a very conservative corporation that does a lot of bad environmentally, so it makes it tough. But when you have groups like Chick-fil-A or Hobby Lobby, where it's clear as day, that's where you know. I was actually going to ask what people can do to support what you're doing.

Sasha Buchert: 43:13

Oh, great, you can support land illegal. I love that financially, you know, or otherwise. But I think that things people can be doing you know include number one voting register to vote and vote. Register to vote and vote. Number two find out who your state legislators are. You can just Google, find my state legislator, find out who they are. I'm not even asking you to call them, you know, just find out who they are. Because as soon as you know who they are, you'll get more plugged in. Go to a city council meeting, get more involved locally. And the third thing would be just looking at where you're spending your money.

Brad Shreve: 43:47

Well, thank you for your time. It's been great talking to you. You've made me feel hopeful.

Sasha Buchert: 43:51

Back at you. Thanks, Brad.

Brad Shreve: 43:54

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