Transcript
WEBVTT
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This is Queer, we Are Hi.
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This is Brad.
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And what better movie to discuss during Pride Month than the celebrated 1970s the Boys in the Band.
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Some love it, some hate it, and we discussed both sides, but it cannot be argued.
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It was groundbreaking.
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I haven't been around with new episodes because I've been tied up on jury duty for an exhaustive murder trial.
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Court has been in session for one month and we still haven't begun deliberations.
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This is the first time I've ever done this.
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Given the trial, which has made me even later publishing my next novel, I've decided to put the show on summer hiatus rather than trying to get something out to you as time allows.
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I have great guests lined up for when Queer Re-Art returns, including Oscar winners, experts on the bear community, lesbian history and much more.
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I am excited and I hate that I had to put them off.
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Since I've had to reschedule guests, I'm providing another episode of the Going Hollywood podcast, where I discuss movies and television with film historian Tony Maeda.
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We converse about the positive and negative viewpoints of the boys in the band as well as take you behind the scenes.
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If you'd like to check out the Going Hollywood podcast and I hope you do there's a link in the show notes.
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Hello, I'm film historian Tony Maietta.
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And I'm Brad Shreve, who's just a guy who likes movies.
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We discuss movies and television from Hollywood's golden age.
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We go behind the scenes and share our opinions too.
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And, of course, being the average guy, my opinions are the ones that matter, as does your self-delusion.
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Welcome to Going Hollywood, Brad.
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Before we start, because I never see you except when we're recording these podcasts, and I wanted to invite you to this birthday party that I'm going to.
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I was wondering if you'd like to go with me.
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You know it's going to be a really tight group about nine guys.
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It's just a very small get-together and these guys are a lot of fun.
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They can be a lot of fun, and it's at this fabulous apartment with this huge terrace that overlooks the city.
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So, would you like to go with me?
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You know, tony, I get such a rare opportunity to get into the city now that I live outside, that I would love to come to one of your parties.
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Oh good.
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Well, it's not my party, it's for a friend of mine.
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It's his 32nd birthday.
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Oh, he's old.
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It'll be a lot of fun.
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But you know, I should probably mention, you know, that.
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Just a little caveat there is the slightest potential for humiliation, emotional scarring and devastation, but there'll be cake.
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Well, hey, cake's all that matters.
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I can deal with the rest of it.
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Happy Pride, everybody.
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Happy Pride.
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It's boys in the band.
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Did we give it away?
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Did we give it away too much there?
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Nothing to sing.
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You know, with this podcast being relatively new, tony and I were making all kinds of plans to you know what episodes do we want to do?
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When we brainstormed and finally Tony's like wait a minute, it's Pride Month, we need to do a Pride Month episode, and so we have just enough time to get this one in.
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What a good one to choose.
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Well, I think we kind of have to, and I was also saying to Brad too you know it's kind of redundant that we're doing a Pride episode because so many of our episodes have gay references, but I feel it was really important that we do this.
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Landmark film's a very, very.
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No matter how you feel about it, good or bad there's no denying it's a landmark and it needs to be discussed, I think.
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And I have a couple of things to say about it.
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I was, I had mixed emotions when you said it.
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I immediately said, oh God, we have to do it.
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It's a classic Right.
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But if you remember, I said well, what were you talking?
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I assumed you were talking about the 1970 film, but I didn't want to 100% assume that.
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I didn't want to watch the wrong thing.
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So I asked you are we talking about the 70 film, the Netflix 2020 film, or are we doing both?
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And you were like well, I only had my head in 1970.
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I said that's fine.
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So I had mixed feelings when you decided that this would be a good idea, tony.
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And the reason is I hate this movie.
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I've always hated this movie.
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It's disturbing.
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There's a lot about it I hate.
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So I said, when I sit down this time, I'm going to go with an open mind and put things in a different perspective.
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So I did that and later I will share with you if my feelings about this movie have changed.
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Okay, good, Good.
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But like any movie, right now I can tell you there are big pluses and big minuses, like any film, and we can certainly get into those along the way.
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Yeah, you know, I think this movie is important to do, just for its landmark value.
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You know, there's no getting around it, whether you love it or whether you hate it, it was the first time that gay characters were seen as quote-unquote normal people.
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Now I know there's people who are going to give me an argument about what normal is, but anyway, that weren't aberrants of nature, that gay people were just like everybody else.
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It was the first time in a mainstream film.
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Obviously, there had been gay characters in films and they usually were murderers or were murdered.
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You know Sebastian Venable getting eaten literally by a group of roving tree dirchins.
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So what's important about the Boys in the Band is that it was the first and, yeah, love it, hate it.
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It has that distinction.
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So I think that's why it's important for us to talk about.
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I have mixed feelings about this film as well, you know.
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It's funny because I think I was thinking about when was the first time I saw Boys in the Band and, regardless of what anyone might think out there, I did not see it in the theater in 1970.
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The first time I saw it, I know, was on VHS.
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It had been released on VHS, which was a horrible quality Horrible, horrible, but I had to see it because I heard so much about it.
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But I think I saw Cruising first.
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Okay, william Friedkin, for a supposedly straight man, and he was married four times, so I'm assuming he was straight.
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He directed the two most controversial films in gay cinema history the Boys in the Band and then, 10 years later, cruising.
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Oh, someday we'll do Cruising, but I'll have to get my stomach ready for that.
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I think I saw Cruising first, so Boys in the Band wasn't that scarring to me because nobody was being knifed to death in Boys in the Band.
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You know what I mean.
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So coming to Boys in the Band after seeing Cruising was like a breath of fresh air for me personally.
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Boys in the Band after seeing Cruising, it was like a breath of fresh air.
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for me personally, queer people were protesting, cruising.
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I know people that tell me they were out there with their placards.
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Well, queer people were protesting.
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Boys in the Band.
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Well, yeah, but Cruising was a flashback to basically gay men are all psychopaths.
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Yeah, it's a hard film to watch.
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Maybe we can do it sometime no-transcript.
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I'm going to get to that later but I'm going to give my description at first.
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Boys in the Band is a 1970 film based on a 1968 play by Matt Crowley and, to put this in perspective, the play came out the year before Stonewall and therefore the movie came out and I assume was being filmed during the time of Stonewall Interesting story there.
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So this is a pretty amazing time period.
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Yes, you know what Mark Crowley said.
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The reason he wasn't at Stonewall although I don't think he would frequent Stonewall, he probably went more for the townhouse.
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Knowing Mark Crowley went Stonewall, he probably would have been.
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He probably went more for the townhouse, knowing Mark Crowley.
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They were filming the boys in the band, you know, 20 blocks up from Stonewall, uh, when the writing began.
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So that's, that's kind of tells you what was going on.
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So the boys in the band began as one movie and ended as something very different.
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And you mentioned that you think he'd hang out at the townhouse.
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I'm sure you know he did in real life.
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Did he really?
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That was a shot in the dark.
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Yes, the apartment was based on an actress and I'll have to find her name Tammy Grimes.
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Tammy Grimes the exterior was actually filmed at her apartment.
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Right, the daytime Right.
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But they could not get the cameras inside her apartment.
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It was too small.
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So they built a set that they say matched it.
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So pretty, damn nice apartment.
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I'll tell you that.
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Gorgeous apartments on the Upper East Side.
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Nobody could afford that in New York today.
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No, certainly not.
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So what is this movie about?
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Okay.
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So the movie is about a birthday party and it is hosted by Michael, and Michael is a for lack of a better word I keep seeing recovering alcoholic.
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He doesn't usually really use that term.
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He pretty much just says I stopped drinking, but he's an alcoholic.
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You definitely learned that.
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He also is Catholic and seems to be struggling there.
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And he is hosting this party for his friend, harold.
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And I don't know what Harold does for a living.
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I don't think he's ever told.
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But Harold describes himself as an ugly, pockmarked Jew fairy.
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Michael and all his friends are all stereotypes and I don't see that as a negative because I'm firmly of the belief that stereotypes do exist for a reason and every one of these individuals is a stereotype.
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But I can also say I know every one of these individuals.
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Yeah, that's true.
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Well, that's very true.
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Yeah, I know every one of them.
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Michael is really struggling with his identity.
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Though you would never know it at the beginning, he seems the most stable.
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Harold is very self-loathing, bitter in his own way.
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Emery is super flamboyant, the decorator.
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Well they are archetypes.
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Yes.
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Now I hear what you're saying.
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They are archetypes.
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But I think it's important to point out, and Mark Crowley has said this, and I wanted to get a little bit in the background of and Mark Crowley has said this and I wanted to get a little bit in the background of I'm not gonna talk a lot about the play, but it's important because basically, what we're seeing when we see the film the Boys in the Band is the play, is the film version of the play, because it has the exact same cast, almost all of the same dialogue.
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So I want to talk about that.
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But what Mark Crowley?
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When he would get criticized for saying it was a bad representation of gay culture, he's like I'm not trying to represent gay culture, these are my friends.
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All of these characters were based on real people that Mark Crowley knew.
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Now, harold, he was an ice skater.
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I don't think he's still ice skating, but, as you said, you didn't know what he did.
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Harold was an ice skater.
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He was based on a very good friend of Mark Crowley's.
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Basically, what happened is let me go ahead and give a little background about.
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Can I go ahead and give a little bit of background about how the boys in the band came about and about Mark Crowley.
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Sure, let's go ahead and do that.
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So, anyway, mark Crowley grew up in the South and longed to be a playwright.
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He moved to New York when he was young and he somehow found himself being a PA on the set of Splendor in the Grass and being a PA primarily for Natalie Wood, and he and Natalie Wood became very close friends and when Splendor in the Grass was over, natalie Wood asked him to come back to Los Angeles with her and be her assistant.
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So he became Natalie Wood's assistant and he was very much in the Hollywood scene of the 60s, which was a fabulous, fabulous time to be in Hollywood, I think, and he knew all these people and he actually one of the things that she said if he came to Hollywood with her, she would give him a meeting with her agent at William Morris so he could get some work writing.
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And he actually wrote some screenplays, one of which was purchased by 20th Century Fox to star Natalie Wood, and Natalie Wood was going to play twins, one of the twins being a lesbian, which would have been incredible, but 20th Century Fox lost their nerve and it never happened.
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It was called.
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Cassandra at the wedding.
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Yeah, so Mark Crowley was kind of like a dilettante.
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He was in the room where it happened, he was with all these famous people, all these things were happening around him, yet he was not doing anything and he began to get very depressed and he began to drink.
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Well, he had this friend, this very good friend, named Howard Jeffries, who was a dancer and worked on all the big musicals in the 60s.
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He was in Funny Girl, he was the groom in the bridal scene, he was in Hello Dolly.
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He was a very, very accomplished dancer and he took Mart to this birthday party that was full of well, not full of gay men, a small birthday party of about a dozen gay men.
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And that was the first light bulb that went off in Mark Crowley's mind about what he could possibly write.
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That spoke to him as a gay man.
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And he said that he was lying in bed and he was very depressed and he just started writing lines, one after the other, after the other, and he just did this for days and days and days until he finally had a play that was based on the concept of a birthday party.
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It's Harold, who he based on his friend Howard Jeffries.
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Harold's 32nd birthday, all of these men come together to wish him a happy birthday and, of course, the night it turns into a long day's journey into night.
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It's, it's just how it happens, how it degenerates.
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But here's what I have a problem with, and maybe you don't agree with this.
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I have been to parties like this.
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You know, maybe they didn't degenerate to the point that they degenerate to in in the boys in the band, but I certainly there, certainly was.
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It was something in the air that I knew this was turning quickly.
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I got to get out of here.
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So that's why, when people say it's stereotypical, I don't know that that's necessarily true or that's necessarily a bad thing, because I think these people exist.
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When I say it's stereotypical, I meant the characters are stereotypes, okay.
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And yeah.
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I guess you could say the situation is stereotypical, but I don't know if I thought that at first.
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The self-loathing is certainly heavy.
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Yes, here's my challenge with this.
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So let me go back into the description that I've seen online, and this is where I have a challenge with this film.
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I'm reading I don't remember where the source was, but it's almost identical to everything else.
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I've seen A witty, perceptive and devastating look at the personal agendas and suppressed revelations swirling among a group of gay men in Manhattan.
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Harold is celebrating a birthday and his friend, michael has drafted some other friends to help commemorate the event.
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Here's where I have the challenge.
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As the evening progresses, the alcohol flows, the knives come out and Michaels demand that the group participate in devious telephone games, unleashed dormant and unspoken emotions.
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If that was this movie, I would like it better.
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That did not describe this movie.
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Those tensions and those antagonisms were right from the very beginning.
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They got worse as later goes on.
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Originally I didn't like this film because there was so much self-loathing.
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And then I looked at my own life and I'm like God.
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I had self-loathing for a lot of years.
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I relate to these people.
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Yeah, pretty common.
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But you know this is all before my time, but I've talked to guys in this era and they said there were two things about it.
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One, it was scary because you never knew who to trust.
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Yes, but despite all that and despite the pain and the suffering, when they got together it was very painful but there's also a lot of joy, yeah, and they really look on that fondly and I didn't see any of that in this movie Really.
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And what I would have liked to seen better, more is in the beginning.
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Maybe it would have been longer or there.
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Probably.
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I can think of a few things that could have been taken out.
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Nothing major.
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I would have liked to have seen more of that joy and the campiness, because I think the camp was much more over the top then Because they had to express themselves somehow.
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You don't think Emery was campy.
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Well, I Connie Casserole.
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Oh Mary, don't ask.
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No, no, I would like to have seen more of that amongst the whole group.
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And they did a little bit of it.
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They did a little dancing, they did the dance of Fire Island, reading each other and that kind of thing.
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To me it went downhill way too fast and it really started out with Michael and is it Donald?
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Yes, michael and Donald are friends, but there's that antagonism between them right from the beginning.
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So I wish it was a little more fun in the beginning and then pull this into the pain.
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Well, see, I find it so funny it's.
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You know, it's no accident.
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The two inspirations that Mark Crowley looks to or mentioned as his inspirations for this, for the play and for the film were who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf?
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Duh, I mean, it is the gay.
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Who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf?
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If that's not redundant.
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I mean, the dialogue is that dense and cutting and it can turn on a dime from outrageous comedy to tragedy.
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And that's Virginia Woolf and that's the boys in the band.
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It's actually one of two plays that were put out on recording.
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I remember because I had both of them.
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They were actually made audio recordings on albums of Virginia Woolf and Boys in the Band and it makes sense because they're like bookends.
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He also looked at Rope, the Alfred Hitchcock film.
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There's a play that the Alfred Hitchcock film was based on because it takes place in real time, and the Boys and the Band also takes place in real time and if you've seen, the movie Rope.
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The play is much more blatant.
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It's a gay couple.
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It's not hinted at.
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So what I think is I find it hysterically funny in the beginning, because I don't know these lines.
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They're so bright, they're so sharp no-transcript.
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just give us a little more of that good time.
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I didn't laugh a lot through this, and I never have.
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I was reading the review of the 2018 Broadway, you know cause.
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It was originally off Broadway and then 2018, they brought it on Broadway and I was reading the review of that Right.